In article <32B02B3B.373F@ionline.net>, eunier <meunier@ionline.net> certain male wrote:
>Okay, several of the people who have been trying to help me out have
>asked me to meta-model my shyness process more carefully. Please be
>patient with me, I didn't get all the way through Structure of Magic and
>I don't know the meta-model inside out, so I will try to describe it as
>best I can...
>
>First of all, with strangers:
>
>- If I'm in an area with a lot of strangers, I scan around noticing
>which females I like. If any of them look back at me, I get some kind of
>internal dialogue or feeling and I quickly avert my eyes. It happens
>extremely quickly, but the gist of it is that I can't or shouldn't allow
>my interest to show. So I asked myself why I don't want that to happen:
> - I don't want to make others feel uncomfortable or invade their
>space. Staring at someone like that might make her uncomfortable.
>She may already be attached or seeing someone, or she might not
>like me and my interest is unwelcome.
> - I might not be her type; What if she's already done a lot of
>dating and I'm not
>experienced or mature enough for her?
> - I don't want to feel foolish. I'm an intellectual type and I know
>that there's a lot of stereotyping and many people are prejudiced
>or biased against intellectuals.
> - It's too soon to show interest, I should get to know her better
>first. If I show interest now, I'm basically saying I want her
>body.
>
>- If I get an opportunity to talk to someone I've noticed, the response
>is similar:
> - Again, I don't want to make her uncomfortable or invade her space.
>She may not want to talk to me, or maybe she doesn't like
>strangers, or she's in a bad mood and now's not a good time.
> - She might not like me and I don't want to make a mistake or look
>stupid or foolish.
> - Often I just can't think of an appropriate thing to say!
> - I want to be open about my interest but I feel it's a faux pas to
>"hit on'' women and I don't want her to feel threatened by me and
>get scared off.
>
>- With the women I am on speaking terms with, it's basically the same
>idea again but with the added risk of messing up friendships and having
>other people I know find out about it. Though I'm actually getting a lot
>better at showing some affection to these people.

First of all, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the things that you're telling yourself, so don't bother trying to change this.

What's wrong is that you're listening to all this crap!

You already know that you're a total dork! Why would you listen to what somebody like that tells you?

Now first off, you have to accept that fact that you are absolutely correct that women are not going to want to talk to you and not going to like you. Why should they? You are a self-centered selfish asshole and a dishonest hypocrite. That's clear from what you've said above. So start out by cleaning up your act and carrying your own weight for a change.

You're like one of those people who loves going to parties but is never willing to give one or put in any work into helping put one on.

You're like one of those people who likes going out to dinner but is never willing to pay his share of the check.

Who needs somebody like you?

First of all, start by stopping all the lying you're doing to yourself.

> - Again, I don't want to make her uncomfortable or invade her space.
>She may not want to talk to me, or maybe she doesn't like
>strangers, or she's in a bad mood and now's not a good time.

Liar! You don't care about her feelings. All you care about is yourself.

By the time she runs into you, she's already had dozens of people invade her space during the day and had dozens of things happen that made her uncomfortable. Did you care? Were you there to protect her? NO! So quit trying to put on this big con about being a guy who cares so much. If you cared that much, you'd be on the look-out for the women at the party who were having a difficult time and needed someone to help them out.

You can't tell me that at a gathering of several people, you can't manage to spot at least two or three women who are feeling uncomfortable and could use a little help -- if only a friendly smile and a kind word.

But you don't care about these women who could use some attention from you. You're so fucking self-centered that all you care about is yourself.

> - She might not like me and I don't want to make a mistake or look
>stupid or foolish.
> - Often I just can't think of an appropriate thing to say!
> - I want to be open about my interest but I feel it's a faux pas to
>"hit on'' women and I don't want her to feel threatened by me and
>get scared off.

Now that's being more honest! All you really care about is whether you look good or not. There are women in the room who are lonely or feeling bad, but are you going to give them as much as a friendly smile?

No! You're concerned that somebody might think you were making an ass of yourself. Somebody might see you making a faux pas. You might even be rejected. You might even risk ... looking stupid! Can't risk that! You'd absolutely die!

So just stand there alone, like a selfish bastard. Let other people take the risk. Let them do all the work. Let them approach you and risk being rejected, risk looking stupid, risk making a faux pas.

Aren't you the superior one, Mr Nice Guy who never makes a faux pas, never looks stupid?

When you're willing to put yourself out there and start pulling your own weight, taking on your share of the risks... When you're ready to join the rest of the human race.... Then you might be ready to start learning how to approach women.

When you reach that point -- but not until then -- I'll tell you what to do. Keep it really simple to start with, because you're not ready to tackle anything really hard. Just make it a point, when you're in a group of people, to say something to every woman in the room. It doesn't matter whether she has a boy friend or whether she likes you or thinks you're stupid or thinks you're making a faux pas, because all you're going to do is to say ``hi'' and then move on.

This task may seem easy, but there are pitfalls that can get in your way. For instance, don't fall into the trap of letting some woman ensnare you in a long conversation so that you don't have time to complete your task of saying something to every woman in the room. If one woman seems to really like you, and want to talk to you, and especially if she kisses you a couple of times, be diplomatic. Be gentle but firm. Tell her that it's not that you don't like her or think she's stupid, but you just have something more important to take care of this evening.

Be nice, but you have to be really committed to your goal. Because some women will resort to anything to keep your from completing your task. They'll engage you in a long conversation, and they might even take you home with them and spend the night with you, and that way you'd never get to the other women in the room. And if you don't complete this task, you'll never learn what you need to learn.

When you've successfully fulfilled this task a dozen times, report back to us in the newsgroup.

--
Unlike past American intellectuals, who saw the educated nonacademic public as their main audience, today's leftist intellectuals feel no need to write for a larger audience; colleagues, departments, and conferences have come to constitute their world.      -- Russell Jacoby

In article <Pine.SV4.3.95.961221213714.11889D-100000@apache.utdallas.edu>, Sabren (Michal) <sabren@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Dec 1996, a certain male wrote:
>
>> Lee Lady wrote:
>> > By the time she runs into you, she's already had dozens of people invade
>> > her space during the day and had dozens of things happen that made her
>> > uncomfortable. Did you care? Were you there to protect her? NO! So
>> > quit trying to put on this big con about being a guy who cares so
>> > much. If you cared that much, you'd be on the look-out for the women
>> > at the party who were having a difficult time and needed someone to
>> > help them out.
>>
>> Lee... I'm speechless... I mean, I knew what reframing was, but I never
>> knew what reframing was, till now :)
>
>My first reaction was ``the man's got a point'' and then ``hey Lee, ever
>heard of tact?"... but I've read Lee's stuff before.. and i've always
>considered him a nice guy... so i wondered if there was something more
>here..

I might have been influenced by the fact that I've been watching videotapes of a Richard Bandler seminar over the past few days. (And strangely enough, just tonight I got to a part of the seminar where he talks about shyness and says almost exactly what I said.)

>it never occured to me that there may be a situation where the best way to
>help someone is to rant and scream and make them feel bad about what they
>do.. it probably wouldn't be my first line of action.. but at least now i
>know it's there..

I don't think it would have worked to be gentle with the individual in question. It was not enough just to show him that what he was doing doesn't work. He already knows that. But fear keeps him from changing. So I needed to get to him on an emotional level --- hit him with something stronger than his fear. I would like to install in him a response of anger and disgust everytime he catches himself doing that same old stupid behavior.

Of course what I did with him specifically was based on the fact that two of his most highly held criteria are intelligence and consideration. If I can convince him that his present behavior is stupid and inconsiderate, then he can't resist change, because it's intolerable to him to think of himself as unintelligent or not considerate.

A lot of people might have been tempted to change the things he says to himself on the inside. But that's missing the point. Having him say something more constructive won't really help that much as long as his attention is on what he's telling himself. In order to stop being shy, he has to stop paying attention to his own internal dialogue and put his focus on the woman. That's why I started out by saying, ``Your problem isn't that you're telling yourself the wrong things. Your problem is that you're listening to yourself!''

The structure of shyness and self-consciousness is that one's attention is on oneself and one's own feelings and thoughts rather than on the other person. (I'm kind of a shy guy myself and I had to learn this the hard way. Bandler makes exactly the same point on this videotape I've been watching tonight.) As long as your attention is on what's happening inside yourself, you'll be caught up in worrying, you won't be able to think of anything to say, and a lot of people won't like being approached by you, because they'll sense that neediness in you.

But as soon as you're totally focussed on the other person, and aware of what she's looking for and what she needs, then you won't need to think of something to say --- you'll just say it. And it won't be a big deal if you get rejected --- but you probably won't, because you're approaching her on the basis of her needs, not yours.

It's exactly the same thing as when you're working with a client. If your attention is inside yourself all the time, trying to figure things out, try to think, then you won't be very effective because you won't notice what's happening with the client you're working with.

--
Universities are nurseries of orthodoxy. The university, while offering a nurturing environment, is not a creative one. It can't be. That isn't the function of higher education.   -- Rita Mae Brown